More for y'all to dicker over
Mar. 30th, 2004 03:09 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
elfsIn case anyone wants to get serious, here is the text of Georgia's HB 1477.
I think![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
fallenpegasus is right. It never occurred to the sponsors that an adult would want such a thing done to him or herself. When told that some might, one said he'd never heard of it but "I don't think that's something people ought to be doing to themselves."
(1) Such person circumcises, excises, or infibulates, in whole or in part, the labia majora, labia minora, or clitoris of a female;
(2) Such person is a parent, guardian, or has immediate custody or control of a female child under 18 years of age and causes or permits the circumcision, excision, or infibulation, in whole or in part, of the labia majora, labia minora, or clitoris of the child; or
(3) Such person removes or causes or permits removal of a female child under 18 years of age from this state, for the purpose of circumcising, excising, or infibulating, in whole or in part, the labia majora, labia minora, or clitoris of the child.
I think
fallenpegasus is right. It never occurred to the sponsors that an adult would want such a thing done to him or herself. When told that some might, one said he'd never heard of it but "I don't think that's something people ought to be doing to themselves."
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Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:09 pm (UTC)It's not a Jewish thing only, or even predominantly.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:16 pm (UTC)I don't mind anesthetized ones nearly as much (although I think it does count as genital mutilation inflicted on an infant).
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:27 pm (UTC)It's for that reason that different kinds of beasts are not legally permitted to be harnessed together, because it would create a strain and hardship on one of the animals if not both (which has been taken as supporting evidence in forms of Christianity against mixed race or religion marriages), and for that reason that animals are not permitted to be muzzled during threshing or other purposes (since that would be deemed to be torturous to the animal, to see and smell food and not be able to eat during its work).
While I'm not going to go into my own views on circumcision here, I will note that there is anesthetic given in the form of the wine.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:32 pm (UTC)Are you trying to make some sort of joke?
I am painfully familiar with the traditions of Judaism. Including the ruse of wine-before-cutting-off-the-foreskin. Rabbis have, in my hearing, told me that "it doesn't hurt the kid a bit". On other occasions, they have said that "it's as bad as the pain of circumcision" which they used to describe as a willing sacrifice.
Orthodox Judaism is a pox on the face of the earth. Let's not even START talking about the treatment of animals (kosher slaughter of cattle is probably the cruelest thing done wholesale).
You may have some other ideas about Judaism, but if you read about the practice (or know it first hand) you'd be hard pressed to maintain it simultaneously with any kind of compassion towards animals. Or humans.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:39 pm (UTC)Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:48 pm (UTC)barbaric. painful. - yeah. nonconsensual (at 8 days old) - yeah. defensible? no way.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 05:00 pm (UTC)Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 05:03 pm (UTC)Parents (in this country and elsewhere) assume the ownership of their children's bodies, and too often abuse this - and if genital mutilation is outlawed across the board (regardless of age) for one gender and not even discouraged (when inflicted upon minors) for another, I cry foul.
(Yeah, I'm a survivor of pretty extreme Jewish abuse.)
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 04:55 pm (UTC)Not that I really think that anaesthesia makes it any better.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 05:01 pm (UTC)Not all. The difference is not enough to make a man uninvolved with sex (the main organ of pleasure is stored between the ears, as far as I can see) - but the difference *is* visible, and noticeable, from close up.
In my opinion, a free man in a free society, should get to decide whether or not to forego that dimension of pleasure.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 08:01 pm (UTC)It may be less severe than infibulation or clitoridectomy, but that doesn't make it okay in my book.
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 08:15 pm (UTC)Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 08:27 pm (UTC)Feel the skin on your lower lip, on the inside, where it's touching your teeth.
That's what the skin of the glans of the penis is *supposed* to be like.
"Just lost a little skin".
Re: I want to see that EXACT language about circumcision
Date: 2004-03-30 09:42 pm (UTC)