Elf Sternberg

...and then have the compromise be a clause about it being ok for an adult to have any of these procedures done by an adult, at the age of majority (21, isn't it?)

Body art is fine (for people who've reached their adult size; younger than that and the risk of being pressured into it outweighs the grief of waiting for it).

And it *can* wait.

Jews practice genital mutilation (unanesthetized) on every 8-day old male infant. And *this* practice has GOT to be stopped.

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Remember even though that may be the "full" bill there was addendums to it and they are not mentioned on the link you provided.(maybe somewhere else on the site but i havent have the tim to look yet). And where do we come from saying we can practtice our religious barbarism such as circumcision but they cannot practice theirs? Another example of our church and state integrations.

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shadowfey.livejournal.com

Actually, circumcision is these days commonly done in hospitals, on infants of most religions in the United States.

It's not a Jewish thing only, or even predominantly.

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The ***unanesthetized*** ritual variety is the one that *truly* bugs me. And that is entirely in the province of Jewish practice.

I don't mind anesthetized ones nearly as much (although I think it does count as genital mutilation inflicted on an infant).

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well guess again I found it mentions any kind of excision (which piercings fall under) is against the law. Did we not come to this country for religious freedom? Without the tyranny of people forcing their religious beliefs down our throats. This country has truly inverted itself quite horribly over the years. This land was borne of freedoms and every day more and more are stripped away from us. This is no longer the land of the free. Banning something just because you dont understand it is wrong. These people have no right over what other people do to themselves.

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shadowfey.livejournal.com

Traditionally, a small amount of wine is given to the infant before the circumcision is done. I haven't attended any, but part of the purpose of this part of the ritual was anesthetic in nature; Jewish custom prohibits anything which might be deemed 'unnecessary pain'.

It's for that reason that different kinds of beasts are not legally permitted to be harnessed together, because it would create a strain and hardship on one of the animals if not both (which has been taken as supporting evidence in forms of Christianity against mixed race or religion marriages), and for that reason that animals are not permitted to be muzzled during threshing or other purposes (since that would be deemed to be torturous to the animal, to see and smell food and not be able to eat during its work).

While I'm not going to go into my own views on circumcision here, I will note that there is anesthetic given in the form of the wine.

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Wine as an anesthetic?

Are you trying to make some sort of joke?

I am painfully familiar with the traditions of Judaism. Including the ruse of wine-before-cutting-off-the-foreskin. Rabbis have, in my hearing, told me that "it doesn't hurt the kid a bit". On other occasions, they have said that "it's as bad as the pain of circumcision" which they used to describe as a willing sacrifice.

Orthodox Judaism is a pox on the face of the earth. Let's not even START talking about the treatment of animals (kosher slaughter of cattle is probably the cruelest thing done wholesale).

You may have some other ideas about Judaism, but if you read about the practice (or know it first hand) you'd be hard pressed to maintain it simultaneously with any kind of compassion towards animals. Or humans.

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Woah woah. No need for sarcasm people.this is going fine as a debate,quite heated but entertaining. Lets just agree that circumcision is painfull and barbaric yet continues to happen. Simple enough?

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anyone who uses "a drop of wine on a pacifier" as equivalent to anesthetic has got to have some other agenda - not "discussion of situation".

barbaric. painful. - yeah. nonconsensual (at 8 days old) - yeah. defensible? no way.

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ysabel.livejournal.com

American hospitals commonly don't bother to anaethesize the infant before circumcising him.

Not that I really think that anaesthesia makes it any better.

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I agree totally. However this country is BASED on people following their own beliefs because this country supposedly offers religios freedom. Now unless you want someone questioning or worse yet banning your religious beliefs/acts I recommend you are as adament as I am in fighting people who would regulate OUR freedoms that are ours to have.

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My, uh, reasonably extensive comparative study shows that many (not all, though) circumcized men enjoy sex considerably less than untampered ones.

Not all. The difference is not enough to make a man uninvolved with sex (the main organ of pleasure is stored between the ears, as far as I can see) - but the difference *is* visible, and noticeable, from close up.

In my opinion, a free man in a free society, should get to decide whether or not to forego that dimension of pleasure.

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I'd put the difference at "age of consent". 8 days old is simply too far below to make it acceptable to me.

Parents (in this country and elsewhere) assume the ownership of their children's bodies, and too often abuse this - and if genital mutilation is outlawed across the board (regardless of age) for one gender and not even discouraged (when inflicted upon minors) for another, I cry foul.

(Yeah, I'm a survivor of pretty extreme Jewish abuse.)

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ysabel.livejournal.com

I agree. I'm all for consensual bodymods, but circumcision as it is practiced in this country (secularly and widely, not just religiously) is mutilation.

It may be less severe than infibulation or clitoridectomy, but that doesn't make it okay in my book.

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I have mixed feelings on circumcision. Yea its a little barbaric. But to tell the truth the baby doesent remember it(at least I sure the hell dont). I fell circumcision should be left in the hand of the parents. I DEFINATLY dont approve of the aforementioned acts to the female genitals. They just arent fair to the person later in life. Sure if a guy doesent like his circumcision he only lost a little skin. But infibulation and clitoridectomy can quite adversley affect the person later in their life. I say wait till their 18 and if they are crazy enough to get it done then by all means get it done. But I dont approve on limits on anyone "of age".

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fallenpegasus

"Just lost a little skin".

Feel the skin on your lower lip, on the inside, where it's touching your teeth.

That's what the skin of the glans of the penis is *supposed* to be like.

"Just lost a little skin".

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Hahahahaha.Dude whats with the scathing responses. Ok im a guy plain and simple.and this may be to much info but yea im circumcised and you know what.I dont see that much if ANY harm in it besides a baby thats in a decent amount of pain for a meager amount of time and wont even remeber it. I cant say circumcision is preffered by all guys. But if we outlaw it and give guys the option to go choppy choppy at 18 nobody will ever get it done. Some are happy that they are cirumcised and are even more happy knowing they dont remember this event due to their age when it was done. Circumcision should be left in the hands of parents. I dont approve of most other things done with the genitals but I have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do.same with everyone else,nobody has the right to control someone else because they think that person is doing something wrong. Serioussly now what determines somethings "wrongness", leave that in the hands of the parents or their gods if they so believe. Im a total non believer in anything so you cant call me biased. This ban is unfair to public not only because it limits parents but even more so it limits consenting adults ability to choose what THEY do with THEIR bodys. If they changed this law to exclude consenting adults I might be less inclined to fights this bill but they arent. to finish they have NO right to say what people do because of their religious beliefs or otherwise.

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The labia = (Labiatae`) The Dragon Head Or Shellflower

Dragonhead

Dragonhead, common name for a genus of annual or perennial herbs of the mint family. The dragonhead is native to Europe and Asia; it is sometimes grown in flower gardens. Dragonheads are erect plants with purple, blue, and rarely, white, two-lipped flowers arranged in whorls. An American species of dragonhead grows in rocky, calcium-rich soils. It typically reaches a height of 60 cm (2 ft) and bears light blue flowers in short dense spikes from June to August.

Scientific classification: Dragonheads are members of the family Lamiaceae (formerly Labiatae) and are classified in the genus Dracocephalum. The American dragonhead is classified as Dracocephalum parviflorum.

Labiatae` =

Scientific classification: Mints make up the family Lamiaceae (formerly Labiatae) of the order Lamiales. The well-known mint genus is Mentha. Peppermint is classified as Mentha piperita, spearmint as Mentha spicata, and pennyroyal as Mentha pulegium. Lavender is classified in the genus Lavendula and she-ll-flower in the genus Molucella.

My dragon head or Shellflower will never be pierces. Deathly afraid of needle in fact I don’t even have my ears pierces.

elfs, I believe your statement is referring to female circumcision, I don’t really think a female can be circumcision. Then again I’m totally against it for my personal fears as an adult. I totally find it sick for under age female to brutally damage herself or another adult partake in this to an under age female child. To me, that is close and should be consider to molestation of an underage female child.

Now if the female child is emancipated and into body piercing (Not circumcision), I think the legal age is 15 in the state of Washington. Then I believe in this saying “Do what you will, but only to your own self and harm no other. “

For a Man or boy in circumcision = my son well he had an Elephant Trunk now he has a Penis. To me there is nothing wrong with circumcision for a man/boy. But body piercing is sick! Or maybe I’m just judgmental for I don’t have the guts to do what I consider doltish.

Good Night.

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I dont think body piercings are sick...just not for you. But body mutilation i will agree with you on.it is sick.

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My son was circumcised at 8 days old, and the FIRST thing the moyel (the doctor with religious certifications) told us to do was to go buy some EMLA, a PRESCRIPTION anasthetic. We applied it directly to my son's penis and foreskin, and the actual circumcision was apparently more traumatic for the observers!
The contraption used to isolate the foreskin from the penis was the scariest looking piece of medical equipment I'd seen in years - it put some of the HR Giger instruments (from the movie Dead Ringers) to shame! I understand the pros and cons of circumcision from a biological standpoint, but from a religious perspective, it was imperative to me that my son have a bris. Technically, this is the entry into the contract that the Jews made with God; so without this process he's not Jewish.
Any sort of law here is designed to prevent abuse - some may consider the bris exactly what this law was designed to prevent. But I think that the involuntary clitodirectomy performed on young girls in some cultures is the real target of this. I think people who want this process done should do what is currently being done to escape other onerous governmental regs - cross state lines :)

Joshua Sasmor
JCSasmor_at_msn_dot_com

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cadetstar.livejournal.com

Ah, but they can't, unless they actually move to another state...the last portion of the bill is very explicit in preventing that.

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Oops -- I missed that....
Joshua Sasmor

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Thank You, for my birthday present....Meaning! Todays my Birthday and your the first person today that as agree with me on some point. Only person so far, maybe you can my good luck charm for the rest of the day. Thank you for replying back.

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Well I wish you a happy and wonderfully lucky birthday.

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You are such a good luck charmed. It will be in 3 hours, with the most beauitful Nihongo (Japanese) Goddess I have ever met. Watashi wa nihongo ga sukoshi shika hanasemasen. (Unfortunately I only speak alittle bit of Japanese.) Lie Mada o-aishitemasen I haven't had the pleasure) to practice on anyone, until I met her.

So yes I will be having a wonderful birth day.
Arigat (Thanks for your Help) Good Luck Charm.

I hope if anyone does speak Japanese, don't laugh. Cause it's been along time since I have written it. Speaking it probably alittle better, just trying to remember how to spell the english language is harder for I, to try to remember my spelling in Japanese is just as tough.

Thank you for your wishes, that was very sweet of you.

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I intend to learn japanease because after I finish college I intend on hopping my way west until Im at the pacific coast then I will make the final leap to japan and plan on living there. The states are far to annoying for my tastes(and i grew up here). I dont like all the bans placed on genetic research and thats where my intended career places me.

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Either I got Stood up on my Birth Day or she running late. Traffic out here is terrible, worst than Seattle. Hopefully and praying it's the traffic. Your not to far from me at this time.

I took up Japanese for my first Girlfriend was Japanese. She was the only Japanese girl in my High School and she got mess with alot rudely. I went to Mores High School in California, the most Gang active school there was beside Mount Miguel High school. In fact we got frisk every time and our back packs got scan. You took the city bus to and from school. We were always battling the black culture if we were to wear the wrong color or if we look at them.The Neighborhood I grew up in wasn't pretty place. You had no choice to watch your back. I and my Man and my Girlfriend would hop on The San Deigo Tolly and go to Mission Bay beach to forget about the getto we live in.

I learn her language out of respect for her, since she took time to learn English. Gods I miss her sometimes, but she is married to this beautiful Irish gal and living in Missouri. In fact she called me on my cell just recently and give me some language pointers to impress this woman that is late in picking me up.

I would rather retire in Ireland - infact I'm going there in year or two to visit. I'm halfway to my money goal, I've been studying gaelic(Irish dialect) for few months now.

I'm half Irish and Sicilian and touch of Cherokee. I already been to Italy and I live in the States. I might as well learn and see my other breed of myself.

Any How can I add you to my Friends List so we won't have to plug up Elf's journal?

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My first girl friend was half not full. She was half Brit as well. She knew her native mother's language really well.

The girl that is picking me up is full Japanese.

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Ok well about the friend thing its not to hard.just log in and hit edit profile I think.somewhere buried in there it gives you the option to ammend a friend to your friends list. Just click on my user name to link you to my page...feel free to load up comments on that..speaking of which i should post there soon(been a few days).

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