Orac brings us a report from the front line of the anti-vaccination movement and shows how it's becoming even more hysterical. I'm very pleased to see that Time last week had a cover story about how the anti-vaccination movement is putting us all at risk.
How much do you think solving the world's worst problem would cost? Would you believe only $60 million a year? Eight hours of Iraq. That's how much it would cost to prevent the cognitive developmental diseases related to being malnourished in beta carotene and zinc to the 140 million children worldwide who lack them. Malnutrition, disease control, and access to education-- all relatively economically cheap (but sometimes politically expensive) problems that don't have quite the same cachet as worrying about carbon footprints. This is like exercise... we know how to stay healthy, we're just fatigued of hearing it.
Darwinism "serves the goals of global Jewery." And "When the Clinton White House made statements that they didn't like, what did Zionism do-- they sent him the Jewish Monica."
Because, you know, nothing is more important than bringing little Iraqi kids to Jesus. Yeah, that'll help our cause. I think any soldiers found doing this should be discharged immediately and dishonorably for failing to take their Soldier's Oath seriously.
A case from Tennessee of parents who created a proseltyzing parents group at public schools has been settled. Some of the quotes Ed Brayton collected are quite telling.
Brad DeLong brings us the greatest hits of the Republican spin machine explaining to us how McClellan was always a poor representative of the President's magnificent and eloquent leadership.
Wow. Apparently, there's a huge kerfluffle in the world of vertebrate paleontology, where a respected member of the New Mexico Museum of Natural History is accused of intellectual theft and publishing material without permission from the specimen holders-- and it looks like the professional review was stacked. It's a fascinating look at the ugly underbelly of the politics of science, the ferocious battle over grants and prestige.
Reagan's Director of the Budget brings us his tales of the Reagan White House, and how out of it Reagan really was. Cabinet members would regularly bring him a bamboozling array of facts and figures, and then point to one anecdote that would please him and point him in the direction of approving whatever it was that cabinet member wanted. The "magic asterisks" were footnotes that hid the actual costs of any operation from Reagan's eyes. (via Brad Delong)
If the majority of medical professionals are going to tell me to avoid mercury (including shots with thimerosol) while I'm pregnant, it seems illogical to give a vaccine containing it to my still developing baby (whenever it is born). There are plenty of studies linking mercury to fetal development and I don't understand how those can exist but there not be links after birth. It isn't as if something magical happens outside the womb to give a higher tolerance to mercury.
I recently took a look at all the vaccines that are required these days for kids. I don't recall nearly that many for when I was a kid and wonder exactly what is spurring these requirements. Hep B? Why if mom doesn't have it? Varicella? It's a fricken live vaccine! Why not get it the natural route? It doesn't completely prevent it anyway and when I got it the natural route, I didn't get a bad case of it then either.
[edit] Additionally, before I was pregnant, I informed the medical staff of my intention to get pregnant (when they asked if I was) and they put me down for a thimerosol free flu shot. That was the first I'd even heard about it (in 2006, CA actually signed into law the prevention of giving children and pregnant mothers shots with mercury as a study showed babies getting 86 times the recommended daily intake of mercury from fish via vaccinations). Went in, got a shot. Walked away with a niggling feeling in my head. Asked them to check what the shot was and they confirmed... it was the thimerosol one. They told me then to delay getting pregnant by three months. I'm kind of glad this happened as now I intend to be extra diligent in double checking what shots are being given to me and my family.
Life is lethal. You'll never get out of it alive. End of story.
Speaking on behalf of all the OTHER monkeys who were willing to take their chances on the ground, get your kids vaccinated. I don't care that you imagine you might be putting your kids at risk, you're putting the rest of us at risk.
Suck it up, cock the hammer back and pull the trigger like the rest of us. It's a very, VERY big gun, and there's plenty of empty chambers.
If you can find a way to get them "safely" vaccinated, then by all means, go for it. Japanese method? Hey, awesome. Shoot em' up at 2, that's perfect.
But if you're just going to try and avoid the issue altogether because you don't want to take the risks the rest of are, then please go back in the trees.
As a parent, my feeling on the matter has always been this: if you don't want to have vaccinations for your children until a certain again, fine. But please keep them out of school, out of the grocery store, out of day care, and away from my kids. Perhaps we could have special armbands these "organic, free range" children wear, so that it would be easy to spot and avoid them. And little masks for them. Oh, and their body wastes would have be treated as biohazard material. It sounds difficult, but I'm sure that parents who really *care* about their children's safety would have no problem agreeing to those limitations, for the good of all children.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I wasn't going to do *any* vaccinations or even that I was avoiding issues but it is incorrect. In fact, if you actual read my post, you would see that I was going to double-check shots.. meaning someone's gotta get a shot.
Sure life is lethal. Doesn't mean I'm going to drink antifreeze just because I'm going to die anyway. But I suggest you do some research as to how many empty chambers there are before asking everyone to participate. Again, there is no magic of birth that allows a child to be safe from 87 times the RDI of mercury outside the womb rather than inside. I'm fortunate that California prohibited the stuff two years ago.
Do you have vaccinations for Hep A? Hep B? HPV? Malaria? If you answer no to any of those, why not? They all exist in the world.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I wasn't going to do *any* vaccinations...
Ah yes. My apologies, mouth-or fingers-engaged before brain.
Do you have vaccinations for Hep A? Hep B? HPV? Malaria?
Hah! Actually, yes, yes, no vaccine and prophylaxis for 60 days. Also got smallpox, too. (Boy, was THAT fun. *stab*stab*stab* 20 friggen times with a bifuricated needle.)
I was on a supply ship, and we were in the Gulf and Africa.
There are some things with this movement I agree with. (Now I have to disclose that my 5 y.o. son had several seizures after his 6 month DPT shot. They have not been repeated.)
I do think that kids receive too many shots at too early an age. The combo shots reduce the number of physical shots, but it also makes it very difficult to figure out which shot they are reacting to. I also think that getting 2-3 combo shots with each doctor visit puts too much strain on their little bodies.
Now I'm not anti-vaccine. I just put my kids on the Japanese plan. After my son had his seizures I did a LOT of research (I'm a librarian) and found (at that time) that the Japanese do vaccinate, but they wait to start until the age of 2. The idea is to let the kids immune system fully mature before overwhelming it with multiple vaccines. They are able to tolerate it better and have fewer reactions.
I also have to admit, I think that some vaccines are just plain stupid. If I've been monogamous for more than 6 years and I don't shoot drugs...my newborn infant does not need a Hep B vacc. I also really don't like the chicken pox vacc. In kids its a harmless disease, yes some kids end up with scars, but for the majority...it uncomfortable, but not life threatening. And yes, it can lead to shingles later in life. But say your 5 year old get his kindergarden required chicken pox vacc and then forgets to get the boosters 20 years later and gets the disease as an adult. The odds are it will kill him. I'd rather my kid end up with a few scars and suffer through shingles after age 50 than have him die at 25.
Did you put your child in daycare before age 2? Did daycares have a vaccination requirement? Do you happen to know what today's schools require for vaccination?
No I didn't, I did after (at least a formal daycare...he's been going to our gyms daycare daily since he was 6 months old)...and CA is a choice state. I don't have to vaccinate my kids...and I'm allowed to pick and choose which vaccinations I do give my kids.
mentioning personal beliefs exemption for enrollments. Have you gone this route? (I'm also in CA and would really like to avoid unnecessary vaccines and wondering the difficulty of it)
I have. My son needed special ed for a significant speech delay at 3.5 years. I signed the waiver then and its on file for when he starts kindergarden this fall.
Although I must admit, I'm trying to get him all caught up in the next year or so...I've been too busy with twins to get everyone caught up. But I'm not giving him the chicken pox vax...I'm still hoping I can find someone for them to catch it. but that's next to impossible now a days.
If I've been monogamous for more than 6 years and I don't shoot drugs...my newborn infant does not need a Hep B vacc.
Kindly explain your thought-process on this one to my sister, please. She's just like you: monogamous, doesn't shoot drugs, hasn't had anything to drink in 8 years, eats healthy, eats safe, doesn't swim in toxic areas, doesn't eat raw shellfish and does Yoga several times a week.
Yet somehow, somewhere, she caught Hepatitis C. Yes, "C", as in she's going to the doc several times a month to have her liver enzymes checked to see if she's dying yet. They tried the chemo, but it never dropped below 10,000 like they hoped, so now she just lives with a ticking time bomb in her liver.
Oh, and explain your logic to my aunt, God rest her soul. 60 years old, enjoyed the occasional drink, worked hard in the meat department. She was the picture of health, until one day, she collapsed at work and was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with Hepatitis C. Scared the bejabbers out of the whole town of Southampton, because she was a meat cutter in the local supermarket. She wasn't a druggie or a floozie, so where'd she get it? Nobody knows.
Yet 3 months later, the family was having arguments on weather or not to have the coffin open or closed.
They should have had it closed.
Please understand: these creatures have one...sole...function. Infect. That is their only purpose on this planet. They don't have a social life, they don't make anything, they don't have a religion. That they also kill humans and anything else they can infect is simply a useful by-product of their life cycle. From a population-control standpoint, that is.
In fact, ALL diseases are meant to be population controls. Get dense enough where the infection can spread easily, and there's obviously too many for an area to effectively support. *infect* Zip! *boom* Game over, insert another sperm, bake nine months. BEGIN.
Your magical thinking concerning your personal behavior is why pandemics start.
They only vaccinate hep a and hep b so your sister would still have been out of luck with everyone having all the recommended vaccines.
In fact, there is no hep c vaccine. Most people who have hep c don't have symptoms for years. I would suspect something in the family line for transmission. You realize that toothbrushes can transmit it (because of bleeding gums) right?
I am sorry about your family's problems regarding Hep C. It is a nasty disease where about 10% of those infected have no idea where it came from. One of my best friends just finished up a 48 week treatment for it. I'm hoping they come up with a vaccination for it soon.
Hmmm...so, how do I explain it? Hrmmm. I tested negative as did my husband, I've never been exposed to any of the known vectors for Hep B, neither had my husband...there was no call for my NEWBORN twins to receive a Hep B vaccine. If I worked around blood, or had been an IV drug user at some point, or just had a lot of risky unprotected sex in my youth. I probably would have. But I didn't. The risk was minimal. I didn't want my new daughters seizing and damaging their brains after a vaccination after their older brother had problems.
That being said...they have received them since. I object to newborns and toddlers being given so many shots without consideration about exposure risks. I also object to the doctors smearing ointment on my newborns eyes to prevent a transmission of gonorrhea. I'm clean, so's my husband. No need for it.
So I guess I just object to doctors giving treatment for something when its just not called for. I don't want my Doctor handing me antibiotics when I have a cold...they do nothing, they don't help. I resent it when doctors do give out antibiotics to John Q Public when they have a cold. The next pandemic is more likely to come from that, and everyone's over use of antibiotic soap/cleaning products, than my choosing not to give my newborn an unnecessary vaccine.
Way Out There In The Blue is another great piece of history about Reagan's presidency, this time through the lens of Reagan's beloved Star Wars missile defense system. Nice guy, but seriously, seriously out of it. Definitely the proto-Bush.
They pray when gas is $3.91 a gallon, the cheapest outside of nationalized oil industry countries that sell it at cost instead of market value. What would they do when it's $5.11 a gallon like it is here in Canada? Or, gods forbid, $8 a gallon? Pray harder? Sacrifice a goat? Renounce God? Convert to Islam? The latter makes sense, from a certain point of view. After all, gas is *really* cheap in Saudi Arabia...
I lived in the Netherlands for a few years in the early '90s. If I recall it correctly, gas was the equivalent of about four dollars a gallon in 1994. To contrast, I believe gas was just hovering around a dollar a gallon in the US at the same time. (I have exactly no citations to back any of that up - I'm just pulling these figures out of the murky recesses of memory.)
Folks I know who've never spent any time out of the US don't seem to understand how much cheaper gas is here than anywhere else.
Or everything else, for that matter. The brief time I spent in Europe showed me that *everything* was twice the price it is here. It's quite the eye-opener when you see a can of coke going for a pound stirling, then do the math in your head (it was easy for me - 1 pound was almost exactly $2 Cdn).
You can respond to most of the grousing of Americans about the price of gas with the maxim "you made your bed, now lie in it". They've built a world that can only exist if the price of gas is low. It's the reason that gas isn't taxed into the $2.50 a litre range, like it is in most of Europe.
Your information matches mine for that period, yeah.
I think that gas in the U.S. is extraordinarily expensive, though. What we get for the ***appearance*** of cheap gas is a third world economy, payment at the point of service health services (which is just about anti-preventative), and a transportation infrastructure which is, um... ...not at its peak? Would that be a fair characterization?
But the price at the pump looks low, yeah. (Just like the price at the hospital looks low in Europe). It's all a matter of what industries a particular country wants to subsidize...
And before you tell me "but I *neeeeed* my car for..." well, just ask Shunra how they're getting by with $9 a gallon gas in the Netherlands. It's at that point where people really understand what, if anything, they "need" a car for. When something is expensive enough, "needs" become "wants" pretty damn quickly.
There has to be some time when nobody can get to me.
Learning to ride public transportation involves more cultivation of the skill of ignoring the other smelly, loud, drucken, and mentally cracked plains apes than I care to practice.
Really what's happening here is that you're having the tablecloth yanked out from underneath your party. American suburbia exists in its current form purely because gas used to be cheap, and there is no backup plan. It probably won't be long until the only way to work in the city is by living in the city.
While I didn't exactly forsee this happening a year and a half ago (I knew gas was going up, but I was mostly motivated by ecology, not economy), I'm well prepared for it, since I designed my lifestyle around not owning a car when we bought our townhouse.
Yes, I know its higher everywhere else in the western world...but I also think that until Americans (who probably have more cars, and other gas consuming vechicles than anyone else. Not that I know this for a fact, I'm just making a logical assumption considering that around here...there are more cars per households than people, i.e. 3 cars, two drivers) really start to feel the pain that the rest of the world puts up with, neither Tokoyo nor Detroit are really pressured to come up with "a new idea!". Once Joe America starts paying $100.00 to fill up a tank of gas, then there will be the outcry "Fix this!", then they'll actually start to look even more closely at the problem (Hybrids are a great interim solution). Remember, the gas shortages of the '70 is what gave us the carburetor, which increased? Gas mileage.
ask Shunra how they're getting by with $9 a gallon gas in the Netherlands Lets just assume she lives in Hilversum (which is where a friend of mine and his family moved) The school that their kids attend, is about a mile from their house. The train station for the commute? About the same. Downtown for grocery shopping? On the way back from school. Older cities in Europe and the Eastern US (and I'm assuming Canada as well, I've never been to that East Coast) was designed around walking people. And is thus fairly to get around in and is also fairly easy to set up effective mass transit. So they really don't need a car. Its nice for road trips on the weekends. But day to day living? Walking, biking, and mass transit work great.
I live out in surburbia, in the Silicon Valley. This place was designed for cars. Now granted, a grocery store is about a mile and a half away, and I pass right by my gym, and I am extremely glad that all of our schools are indeed walking distance at less than 1/4 of a mile away (except the pre-school. That's a good 4 miles away). Everything else? BFE! Why don't I take the bus? Because what is less than a 5 minute drive, takes 20 minutes on the bus. And the 1/4 gallon that I use for that trip costs less than the bus fare for 4 passengers. My commute? 10 minutes in my car. 45 on the bus. My husband is lucky that he can use the light rail, its convenient. And at rush hour, the timing is about the same. And now with gas so high, its actually (FINALLY!) cheaper. Why don't I just walk or ride my bike to the gym and store? Two reasons. 1. 3 small kids, 5 and under. I can't take them all on my bike and trailer. Why doesn't the 5 y.o. ride his bike? I'll answer that with #2. The road that I would have to use to either ride or walk, is to put bluntly, dangerous. It is a VERY busy 6 lane street, where people commonly speed 15-20 mph over the limit.
I need a car. So what do I do? I don't go far, I group my outings/errands, I drive the limit, and we stay home a lot. I think a lot of Americans outside of a big Metropolitan City like, NY, Chicago, & St Louis, are all in the same boat. More things in the 'burbs and Franchise Ghettos' spread too far apart for other options to be feasible. This is why I think this is why something, on the technology front, will finally happen.
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re: vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 04:37 pm (UTC)I recently took a look at all the vaccines that are required these days for kids. I don't recall nearly that many for when I was a kid and wonder exactly what is spurring these requirements. Hep B? Why if mom doesn't have it? Varicella? It's a fricken live vaccine! Why not get it the natural route? It doesn't completely prevent it anyway and when I got it the natural route, I didn't get a bad case of it then either.
[edit] Additionally, before I was pregnant, I informed the medical staff of my intention to get pregnant (when they asked if I was) and they put me down for a thimerosol free flu shot. That was the first I'd even heard about it (in 2006, CA actually signed into law the prevention of giving children and pregnant mothers shots with mercury as a study showed babies getting 86 times the recommended daily intake of mercury from fish via vaccinations). Went in, got a shot. Walked away with a niggling feeling in my head. Asked them to check what the shot was and they confirmed... it was the thimerosol one. They told me then to delay getting pregnant by three months. I'm kind of glad this happened as now I intend to be extra diligent in double checking what shots are being given to me and my family.
Re: vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 06:11 pm (UTC)Speaking on behalf of all the OTHER monkeys who were willing to take their chances on the ground, get your kids vaccinated. I don't care that you imagine you might be putting your kids at risk, you're putting the rest of us at risk.
Suck it up, cock the hammer back and pull the trigger like the rest of us. It's a very, VERY big gun, and there's plenty of empty chambers.
If you can find a way to get them "safely" vaccinated, then by all means, go for it. Japanese method? Hey, awesome. Shoot em' up at 2, that's perfect.
But if you're just going to try and avoid the issue altogether because you don't want to take the risks the rest of are, then please go back in the trees.
Re: vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 06:30 pm (UTC)Just a modest proposal. ;-)
Re: vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 07:07 pm (UTC)Sure life is lethal. Doesn't mean I'm going to drink antifreeze just because I'm going to die anyway. But I suggest you do some research as to how many empty chambers there are before asking everyone to participate. Again, there is no magic of birth that allows a child to be safe from 87 times the RDI of mercury outside the womb rather than inside. I'm fortunate that California prohibited the stuff two years ago.
Do you have vaccinations for Hep A? Hep B? HPV? Malaria? If you answer no to any of those, why not? They all exist in the world.
Re: vaccines
Date: 2008-06-04 04:45 am (UTC)Ah yes. My apologies, mouth-or fingers-engaged before brain.
Do you have vaccinations for Hep A? Hep B? HPV? Malaria?
Hah! Actually, yes, yes, no vaccine and prophylaxis for 60 days. Also got smallpox, too. (Boy, was THAT fun. *stab*stab*stab* 20 friggen times with a bifuricated needle.)
I was on a supply ship, and we were in the Gulf and Africa.
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 04:39 pm (UTC)I do think that kids receive too many shots at too early an age. The combo shots reduce the number of physical shots, but it also makes it very difficult to figure out which shot they are reacting to. I also think that getting 2-3 combo shots with each doctor visit puts too much strain on their little bodies.
Now I'm not anti-vaccine. I just put my kids on the Japanese plan. After my son had his seizures I did a LOT of research (I'm a librarian) and found (at that time) that the Japanese do vaccinate, but they wait to start until the age of 2. The idea is to let the kids immune system fully mature before overwhelming it with multiple vaccines. They are able to tolerate it better and have fewer reactions.
I also have to admit, I think that some vaccines are just plain stupid. If I've been monogamous for more than 6 years and I don't shoot drugs...my newborn infant does not need a Hep B vacc. I also really don't like the chicken pox vacc. In kids its a harmless disease, yes some kids end up with scars, but for the majority...it uncomfortable, but not life threatening. And yes, it can lead to shingles later in life. But say your 5 year old get his kindergarden required chicken pox vacc and then forgets to get the boosters 20 years later and gets the disease as an adult. The odds are it will kill him. I'd rather my kid end up with a few scars and suffer through shingles after age 50 than have him die at 25.
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 04:50 pm (UTC)Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 05:14 pm (UTC)Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 05:16 pm (UTC)mentioning personal beliefs exemption for enrollments. Have you gone this route? (I'm also in CA and would really like to avoid unnecessary vaccines and wondering the difficulty of it)
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 06:44 pm (UTC)Although I must admit, I'm trying to get him all caught up in the next year or so...I've been too busy with twins to get everyone caught up. But I'm not giving him the chicken pox vax...I'm still hoping I can find someone for them to catch it. but that's next to impossible now a days.
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 06:02 pm (UTC)Kindly explain your thought-process on this one to my sister, please. She's just like you: monogamous, doesn't shoot drugs, hasn't had anything to drink in 8 years, eats healthy, eats safe, doesn't swim in toxic areas, doesn't eat raw shellfish and does Yoga several times a week.
Yet somehow, somewhere, she caught Hepatitis C. Yes, "C", as in she's going to the doc several times a month to have her liver enzymes checked to see if she's dying yet. They tried the chemo, but it never dropped below 10,000 like they hoped, so now she just lives with a ticking time bomb in her liver.
Oh, and explain your logic to my aunt, God rest her soul. 60 years old, enjoyed the occasional drink, worked hard in the meat department. She was the picture of health, until one day, she collapsed at work and was taken to the hospital and diagnosed with Hepatitis C. Scared the bejabbers out of the whole town of Southampton, because she was a meat cutter in the local supermarket. She wasn't a druggie or a floozie, so where'd she get it? Nobody knows.
Yet 3 months later, the family was having arguments on weather or not to have the coffin open or closed.
They should have had it closed.
Please understand: these creatures have one...sole...function. Infect. That is their only purpose on this planet. They don't have a social life, they don't make anything, they don't have a religion. That they also kill humans and anything else they can infect is simply a useful by-product of their life cycle. From a population-control standpoint, that is.
In fact, ALL diseases are meant to be population controls. Get dense enough where the infection can spread easily, and there's obviously too many for an area to effectively support. *infect* Zip! *boom* Game over, insert another sperm, bake nine months. BEGIN.
Your magical thinking concerning your personal behavior is why pandemics start.
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 06:55 pm (UTC)In fact, there is no hep c vaccine. Most people who have hep c don't have symptoms for years. I would suspect something in the family line for transmission. You realize that toothbrushes can transmit it (because of bleeding gums) right?
Re: Vaccines
Date: 2008-06-03 07:13 pm (UTC)Hmmm...so, how do I explain it? Hrmmm. I tested negative as did my husband, I've never been exposed to any of the known vectors for Hep B, neither had my husband...there was no call for my NEWBORN twins to receive a Hep B vaccine. If I worked around blood, or had been an IV drug user at some point, or just had a lot of risky unprotected sex in my youth. I probably would have. But I didn't. The risk was minimal. I didn't want my new daughters seizing and damaging their brains after a vaccination after their older brother had problems.
That being said...they have received them since. I object to newborns and toddlers being given so many shots without consideration about exposure risks. I also object to the doctors smearing ointment on my newborns eyes to prevent a transmission of gonorrhea. I'm clean, so's my husband. No need for it.
So I guess I just object to doctors giving treatment for something when its just not called for. I don't want my Doctor handing me antibiotics when I have a cold...they do nothing, they don't help. I resent it when doctors do give out antibiotics to John Q Public when they have a cold. The next pandemic is more likely to come from that, and everyone's over use of antibiotic soap/cleaning products, than my choosing not to give my newborn an unnecessary vaccine.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 04:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 04:40 pm (UTC)Bond, James Bond?
Date: 2008-06-03 05:06 pm (UTC)Legal shenanigans ensued.
With a family history like that, I don't know who Sebastian Faulkes, but I'm sure I could write a better book.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 05:23 pm (UTC)They pray when gas is $3.91 a gallon, the cheapest outside of nationalized oil industry countries that sell it at cost instead of market value. What would they do when it's $5.11 a gallon like it is here in Canada? Or, gods forbid, $8 a gallon? Pray harder? Sacrifice a goat? Renounce God? Convert to Islam? The latter makes sense, from a certain point of view. After all, gas is *really* cheap in Saudi Arabia...
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 07:40 pm (UTC)Folks I know who've never spent any time out of the US don't seem to understand how much cheaper gas is here than anywhere else.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 07:55 pm (UTC)You can respond to most of the grousing of Americans about the price of gas with the maxim "you made your bed, now lie in it". They've built a world that can only exist if the price of gas is low. It's the reason that gas isn't taxed into the $2.50 a litre range, like it is in most of Europe.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 08:46 pm (UTC)I think that gas in the U.S. is extraordinarily expensive, though. What we get for the ***appearance*** of cheap gas is a third world economy, payment at the point of service health services (which is just about anti-preventative), and a transportation infrastructure which is, um... ...not at its peak? Would that be a fair characterization?
But the price at the pump looks low, yeah. (Just like the price at the hospital looks low in Europe). It's all a matter of what industries a particular country wants to subsidize...
no subject
Date: 2008-06-03 09:46 pm (UTC)I figure if it keeps going up, Detroit and Tokoyo will either
A: Come up with some after market gas consumption fix
OR
B: Come up with some truly radical technology that will eliminate (or severely reduce) the use of fossil fuel beyond lubricants.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-04 06:58 am (UTC)Plenty of other solutions have appeared in these other places though:
- smaller cars
- electric trains
- denser cities
- mopeds
- bicycles
And before you tell me "but I *neeeeed* my car for..." well, just ask Shunra how they're getting by with $9 a gallon gas in the Netherlands. It's at that point where people really understand what, if anything, they "need" a car for. When something is expensive enough, "needs" become "wants" pretty damn quickly.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-04 05:04 pm (UTC)There has to be some time when nobody can get to me.
Learning to ride public transportation involves more cultivation of the skill of ignoring the other smelly, loud, drucken, and mentally cracked plains apes than I care to practice.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-04 08:50 pm (UTC)Personally I don't take public transit to work. But that's in no small part because work is 4 blocks away. There's a certain luxury in that.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-04 08:47 pm (UTC)While I didn't exactly forsee this happening a year and a half ago (I knew gas was going up, but I was mostly motivated by ecology, not economy), I'm well prepared for it, since I designed my lifestyle around not owning a car when we bought our townhouse.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-05 04:13 am (UTC)ask Shunra how they're getting by with $9 a gallon gas in the Netherlands
Lets just assume she lives in Hilversum (which is where a friend of mine and his family moved) The school that their kids attend, is about a mile from their house. The train station for the commute? About the same. Downtown for grocery shopping? On the way back from school. Older cities in Europe and the Eastern US (and I'm assuming Canada as well, I've never been to that East Coast) was designed around walking people. And is thus fairly to get around in and is also fairly easy to set up effective mass transit. So they really don't need a car. Its nice for road trips on the weekends. But day to day living? Walking, biking, and mass transit work great.
I live out in surburbia, in the Silicon Valley. This place was designed for cars. Now granted, a grocery store is about a mile and a half away, and I pass right by my gym, and I am extremely glad that all of our schools are indeed walking distance at less than 1/4 of a mile away (except the pre-school. That's a good 4 miles away). Everything else? BFE! Why don't I take the bus? Because what is less than a 5 minute drive, takes 20 minutes on the bus. And the 1/4 gallon that I use for that trip costs less than the bus fare for 4 passengers. My commute? 10 minutes in my car. 45 on the bus. My husband is lucky that he can use the light rail, its convenient. And at rush hour, the timing is about the same. And now with gas so high, its actually (FINALLY!) cheaper. Why don't I just walk or ride my bike to the gym and store? Two reasons. 1. 3 small kids, 5 and under. I can't take them all on my bike and trailer. Why doesn't the 5 y.o. ride his bike? I'll answer that with #2. The road that I would have to use to either ride or walk, is to put bluntly, dangerous. It is a VERY busy 6 lane street, where people commonly speed 15-20 mph over the limit.
I need a car. So what do I do? I don't go far, I group my outings/errands, I drive the limit, and we stay home a lot. I think a lot of Americans outside of a big Metropolitan City like, NY, Chicago, & St Louis, are all in the same boat. More things in the 'burbs and Franchise Ghettos' spread too far apart for other options to be feasible. This is why I think this is why something, on the technology front, will finally happen.