For Solarbird: Torture States Love To Hold Hands With Other Torture States

[elfs]

About three weeks ago, Brigadier General Thomas Hartmann, the Defense Department's chief legal advisor on Guantanamo Bay, testified before Congress that he was unwilling to say, clearly and loudly, that if a U.S. soldier were captured by enemy forces and subjected to waterboarding then that would be torture.

Apparently, if he says that their doing it to us is torture, then our doing it to them is also torture.

There has been considerable tit-for-tat between Hartmann and a colleague of his, the former chief prosecutor from the Office of Military Commissions, Morris D. Davis, over the issue. Davis had resigned his commission over the issue back in October.

Well, now that Hartmann has opened his mouth, another soldier has left the battlefield. Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Williams resigned his commission two weeks after Hartmann's testimony.

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And for a serious giggle, check out U.S. Christian not prepared for coming persecution, in which some minister claims that American Christians are "very naive" in believing that persecution isn't coming their way.

Yeah, right. These people make up 88% of the population (but 92% of the prison population, hmm...), 96% of Congress and goddess only knows how many in lower state and municipal boards (but I'm willing to bet it's at least 88%). How the hell do these people survive the cognitive dissonance of being the overwhelming majority and yet cringing every time someone says, "Have a happy holiday?"

Comments

[tagryn]

FWIW, the Christian percentage in the USA is actually around 81%-82%. Just being precise, doesn't change the point much.

Where's your estimate on the religion of prisoners coming from?

[elfs.livejournal.com]

The 1997 Federal Bureau of Prisons Report on Inmate Religious Affiliation, which you can probably find at your nearest major library.

[tagryn]

Ok, the percentages for the '97 study are here. Throwing that into Excel and summing up categories, I get 80% of the prison pop (who declared any religion) coming up as Christian, but that doesn't include the "none" or "undeclared" categories, so the % of total incarcerated pop. would be even lower. At the least, its proportional to the percentage of the total U.S. population that reports as Christian...

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Huh, you're right. I get 84.6% coming up as "Christian" (did you include "Nation" and "Mormon" under those categories? I did, as both consider themselves to be). Okay, I withdraw the original claim.

[tagryn]

Didn't include "Nation" since I wasn't sure what they were (Aryan Nation?)

Your main point is still backed up by the numbers, though. In a country of 80% Christians, the odds of the USA turning into Saudi Arabia with regards to discrimination against Christians are...well, none, period, and the assertion is manipulative to make. Trying to compare what's (in most cases) arguments over semantics to the real oppression WRT religious freedom in places like SA and China takes that line of thinking from silly to downright offensive.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

To my surprise, my comment on the linked giggle survived moderation:

Freedom of religion in America gives Christians powerful protection from persecution. The separation of church and state protects Christians from backlash from the shifting political landscape. The only real threat to Christians in America is the temptation to blur the line between politics and faith, which can only end in disaster. That said, it is up to each Christian to stand up for what is right and good and just, respecting the rights of others but never being afraid to witness or to speak. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s" Matthew 22:21

[rarkrarkrark.livejournal.com]

I've been seeing a lot of "American Christians being Persecuted" (or "are going to be persecuted"). You should have heard the cries go up when Christian children were "forced" to call a born-male child by her preferred name and preferred female pronouns at an elementary school here in Massachusetts. This is "Christian Persecution" to some. Can't force their religion on others? Persecution. Other religions allowed some air time? Persecution. Mention real persecution in other countries (where Christians actually get killed for their beliefs) to help increase the fear. Keeps the rank and file conservative christians scared and voting for and obeying the people who claim that they will protect them.

While fleecing the majority of conservative christians (most are not rich and powerful. quite the opposite) for the wealth and power of a small number of people who may or may not believe what they preach.

Fish was right. "The shepherd fleeces every lamb that he guided with his rod."

What I'd find interesting is the break out of how many of those self-identified Christians are biblical literalists and how many favor looser interperatations (the best single-issue guideline I've found thus far for telling liberal Christians from conservative Christians. It's not 100% but it seems to work okay)