"The Mathematics of Fairy Tales": Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[elfs]

Once Upon A Time... I read an essay a long time ago about the essential nature of Grimm's Fairy Tales. Modern readers often find the Grimm stories disorienting or troubling, and the consequences of a characters actions go against the grain of the reader's expectations.

The essay explained that this was because modern readers assigned very different attributes to the characters and their motives than 18th century storytellers, and modern values of fairness and merit were not part of the mental landscape of the tales' inventors. Where we would expect characters to suffer a tragic fate for their cruelty, the original audience would understand that he has the right to do as he does by dint of his position in the great chain of being.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Or am I hallucinating?

Comments

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

Well, there's Bettelheim, he wrote extensively about them. There's also Darnton, but his book is recent enough that it's not what I think you mean. But Robert Darnton writes about pretty much that in The Cat Massacre.

[mg4h.livejournal.com]

Thank you, you've managed to remind me of the book I was thinking of when I first read this post - the Great Cat Massacre was the thing I remembered when Elf asked about how these old stories had a weird culture unto their own.

The one about Red Riding Hood just creeped me out for days. *shudder*

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

I love Propp's MORPHOLOGY but you kind of lost me at "great chain of being." Do you mean fairies, angels, devils, etc etc (above us on the Chain)? If so, he might have a point, though I wouldn't call it a 'right'.

The tales are focused on the humans and their fate. The stronger beings function in the story more like a storm or other natural phenomenon does; it blows the ship in the direction of plot, or sinks it, but the storm isn' morally judged one way or another.

For one thing, because they're stronger and more secure than we are, they aren't subject to the same kind of life-changing events that punish or reward the human characters -- at least not within the scope of these stories. (Rumplestiltskin tearing himself in half is an exception, and I'd guess it's a flourish added late.)

[ssatva.livejournal.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being

[bolindbergh]

TV Tropes calls this kind of thing values dissonance and features lots of examples, so you could try going there and asking if any of the regulars know what you're talking about.

[sirfox.livejournal.com]

Reminded me of a line from Pratchett: And then Jack chopped down what was the world's last beanstalk, adding murder and ecological terrorism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned and all the giant's children didn't have a daddy any more. But he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused just about anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

I hadn't run into the article you describe, but i can see what you're getting at, i think.

The moral of the story may just not be what you expect

[resonant.livejournal.com]

I once read a book of Inuit stories.

One story was a long, romantic tale of two lovers.

They fled their respective families and built a cozy camp at the base of a ridge.
Everything they did together was full of love.
They gathered food, made tools, and tanned caribou hides throughout the summer.
They cherished each moment together, and grew happier with every breath.
As the first snows came, their daughter was born.
Their happiness knew no limits, and their joy was frightening in its intensity.
They sang her songs to teach her to be wise.
Their daughter opened her eyes wide, and gazed up at the faces of the parents who loved her so much.

Then Raven danced on the snowdrifts at the top of the ridge, and the family was crushed to death by falling ice and snow.
Raven feasted upon their eyeballs the next spring.

The moral of the story: Don't camp at the base of a ridge.

Re: The moral of the story may just not be what you expect

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

I remember a similar story from Africa iirc. Its moral was 'Don't run away from your families and community.'

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

Because humans are higher up the Great Chain than giants are? Could be, but I expect there was also a tradition that giants are evil or at least treat humans badly (fee fi fo fum) in other stories, so this giant was probably just as bad offstage as the others. (Cf Orcs?) Ogres, giants, etc seem to be kind of interchangeable, and there are a lot of stories about a human hero getting into their house and escaping after more or less mischief.

In much old literature predatory animals are treated as enemies, to be outwitted and destroyed -- without a real judgement of evil being pronounced. Contrast the Three Pigs sort of story where the wolf has a humanoid personality and gets punished.

[rkda.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know what you are talking about. No, you are not hallucinating.

The differences between stories conceived 200+ years ago and stories conceived 100+ years ago with respect to stories that have been disney-fied or "updated" or conceived in the last 100 years is quite stark. Especially with respect to the power (evil?) figures and the heros.

It's not just technology, it's that the complete set of ethics and expectations were some how different. Sufficiently different that many of the old stories don't ring quite right when told in the context of todays world.