In which I engage in mindless, irresponsible speculation about recent tragedy

[elfs]

Okay, there's this huge rush to judgement about what Major Malik Nidal Hasan to commit mass murder on the Army base at Fort Hood. So let me add another element of speculation:

Hasan's imam has been quoted as saying that Hasan, at age 39, had tried hard to locate a wife in the United States and, then, via the Internet. He rejected all of them. There's also a report that in the last weeks prior to his rampage, Hasan frequented a strip club three times in the month prior to his shooting, was a very nice guy, never groped or tried to convince the women to come home with him, and compared to most of the customers tipped very well. Omaha and I have seen that kind of behavior before. It led us to the same speculation:

Was Malik Nidal Hasan gay?

It would add a ton to the pressure already on him. Between his religion and his profession, never mind how his religion made his profession itself so much harder (and vice versa), maybe it was just one more thing that broke him.

Comments

[oldhans117.livejournal.com]

Or maybe he just got fed up with living at Fort Hood, I was there for 3 1/2 years(1/2 of a year in Saudi and Kuwait) and it was pretty much a redneck waste land.

[phred1973.livejournal.com]

Yes, but Austin is only an hour away - I spend as much time there as I possibly can. This is my third time at Hood.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

He shot 51 people in a murderous rampage, fueled by an insane religion that refuses to condemn such acts, even if not *all* of them are willing to undertake such acts.

Don't dare make HIM the victim!

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Grief, you are such a parody of right-wing idiocy sometimes.

Nobody wants to make him a victim. He'll be tried and, hopefully, executed for his crimes. But if you want to prevent this from happening again, understand it, too.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

I understand that his Imam calls him a hero, and calls for any other muslims in the military to be brave enough to do the same.

I understand that one of the people he shot and killed was a pregnant woman.

I understand that several of the people around him who were aware of his radical idealism were afraid to speak out for fear of being persecuted as racists.

Yes, I understand him. I also understand the society that permits his existance and tries to justify his actions in an out of control mantra of political correctness.

It's time to stop being politically correct and admit that there are people who want us dead simply for not believing their religion.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Fine. When you can separate the jihadis (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-abortion-tiller10-2009nov10,0,5558020.story) from the rest of their religious community, let us know.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

When ANY major leader of their religious community PUBLICLY DENOUNCES the jihadist murderers, let me know.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

Let me ask you this: What kind of religion, when a man feels pulled toward increasing his spirituality spends in INCREASING amount of time praying and asking his religious leaders for advice, results in turning that man into a homicidal killer?

Only one.

Any other religion will attempt to guide that same person toward inner peace and avoid violence.

This particular killer increased his religious activities after having bad luck in life, and ended up on a shooting spree. His spiritual leader commends him for it.

Now, you can call me names and dismiss my views as "a parody of right wing idiocy" but name-calling doesn't change the facts... and honestly, I thought it was beneath you.

[xengar.livejournal.com]

Not just one. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33802796/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/)

[xengar.livejournal.com]

Okay, that article isn't the one I thought it was, in that it didn't specify that there were christian religious leaders that support and applaud Roeder's actions, but such was definitely mentioned in other articles. Of course, the classical thing to do when this argument occurs is to bring up the Crusades and or the Inquisition, but I thing the modern example of those who praise and encourage the murder of abortion doctors is more germane.

And there is also the Kali cult and several others whose names escape me if you want to get out of the "people of the book" entirely. The people who kill for religious reasons would do so no matter what religion they where nominally part of. And they would be encouraged by those who enjoy the control that they gain from hatred and fear.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

The Crusades were something like a millenium ago... the Inquisition not long after that, relatively.

Christianity pulled itself out of the dark ages. Islam has yet to do so.

[xengar.livejournal.com]

This article is the last thing I'm saying on the topic. (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/drake-tillers-murder-answer-prayer) It's not specifically "his" pastor condoning it, but I honestly don't want to put any more time into searching through this shit to try and "win" an internet argument. I fully agree that no "true" christian would do these things, but there are a lot of "false" christians out there.

Unrelated to this except as evidence that not all christian are the same: While less directly damaging, the "Prosperity Gospel" is just as contrary to Jesus' actual teachings, and is gaining strength in many parts of the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology)

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

Where does it say in that article that this man's religious leaders condone his action? Sure, he himself condones it and he cites his religious convictions as his reason for his murderous action, but the difference is this: His religion DOES NOT teach what he did is right, and no religious leaders will stand behind what he did as a justified act.

Judeo-Christian religions teach that thou shalt not kill, and that vengence is not the responsibility of the individual. Hinduism, Budhism, and many other belief systems all profess peaceful solutions and acceptance of others' beliefs.

Islam teaches that no infidel shall be suffered.

Until the Islamic religion pulls itself out of the dark ages, I will continue to BLAME it for Jihadism.

[(Anonymous)]

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/death_state_update.php

[elfs.livejournal.com]

What kind of religion, when a man feels pulled toward increasing his spirituality spends in INCREASING amount of time praying and asking his religious leaders for advice, results in turning that man into a homicidal killer?

All of them. And I'd accuse you of wearing a kilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman), but I'm too fond of mine.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

Non-sequitor analogy.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Nonsense. We have ample evidence that Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists have sects with "religious leaders" that lead to an increase in violence among the participants. To claim that Islam is unique in that regard is to be willfully ignorant.

I won't deny that Islam has many more such sects, and that the unreconstructed pro-violence factions are loud and proud and thick on the ground.

What I do want to refute is the notion that this is or can be the sole explanation for Nidal Hassan's actions. The day after Hassan's rampage, another rampage happened in Orlando, FL. You choose to conveniently assume Hassan's attack was jihadi in nature, but it is just as valid, indeed possibly even more valid, to characterize both attacks as workplace rampages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal).

Thousands of Muslims work in the US Military, and thus far we have only one example of one of them committing such violence. We also have records of non-Muslim soldiers doing the same thing (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/11/iraq/main5005795.shtml).

There must be more to the story than "He was a muslim." That answer is enough Vicious Christian Nationalist sheep (http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147489388), but not enough for coherent, thoughtful American citizens who actually, you know, give a damn about what the preamble to the Declaration of Independence reads.

So, when you figure out how to separate the troublemakers from loyal soldiers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/01/jon-krakauer-mcchrystals_n_341545.html), let us know.

And all of this calls into question the whole point of the war in Afghanistan anyway. What's the point of "going over there" to prevent this kind of thing-- now an irresponsible exercise (http://www.ourfuture.org/makingsense/factsheet/iraq-war-costs) in building an unwilling and recalcitrant country when we haven't even finished rebuilding New Orleans-- if all it took to make us all terrified of our neighbors-- a malaise you are doing everything to stoke-- was American citizenship and access to handguns?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, wait. You're serious?


Try telling that, "Only Islam condones murder," to every fag in the U. S. of A. We've been the whipping boys of American Christianity for decades. Politicials and preachers, with hosannas and hallelujahs, accuse ho-mo-sekshals of all manner of foul things, lies all, designed to dehumanize us.

I have no illusion that, come the Amerikan Theocracy, I and my fellow queers will be the first group lined up against the wall and shot.

[graycoyote.livejournal.com]

amen, Candide. You're right.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

Yeah, but I wish that I weren't.

I recently subscribed to Dan Savage's podcast, and am slowly listening through a rather large backlog of episodes. In one from a year or two ago, Dan rants against the latest tactic of the Fundies: declaring that birth control is, "murder." (Cue strains of, "Every Sperm is Sacred.") One thing that Dan Savage has been saying for several years is that the same people who are verbally attacking GLBT folks will be coming for heteros next. He regularly points out ways that the Jesus-taliban is attacking heterosexual rights (like the HPV vaccine, condom availability for adults, and birth control).

So, I wish I were merely being paranoid. I'm not.

[alohawolf.livejournal.com]

The man who goes out and kills people is just as much a victim as those he kills, however we as humanity have decided that the man who kills must suffer punishment befitting the crime. If someone feels murder is the only solution to their problem we as society have a small portion of the blame in it.

As far as the religion angle goes, there are Christians who do not condemn the murderers of Doctors who perform abortion, no religion is clean handed, The problem here is not Islam, its religion in general, its people who think they have the right to judge others that are the problem.

I hope they find out the cause of this, I really do.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

"The man who goes out and kills people is just as much a victim as those he kills..."

I have no other reply to this comment than "You are tweaked. Seek help."

A man who goes out and kills people is a cold blooded murderer and needs to be condemned for his acts, not made into a victim, nor any attempts made to justify his acts. The act is wrong, and the perpetrator deserves no compassion.

[alohawolf.livejournal.com]

Murder does not happen in a vacuum, to assume otherwise is foolish.

People for the most part are not BORN Murderers, they are taught to hate, or ignored by society, or suffer from some form of mental illness. There are Psychopaths, but I do not believe that these people are the majority.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

People who become murderers are not usually exposed to any more or fewer stressors in their life than other people (the majority of mankind) who are able to cope with those same stressors in a more rational manner.

Some people commit suicide. Some people join cults. And yes, some people when faced with stressors become murderers.

It's not the environment that creates them, it's the mechanism they've chosen to deal with the environment and there's not much of ANYTHING that you or society can (or should) be able to do about it.

Some people are simply unable to cope, and take to violence instead of reason.

So, yes, murderers can be people who are born with the inability to cope with stressors other than acting out violently.

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

Secondary analogy that might hit closer to home for you: If some people are not "Born Murderers" then that means that some people are not "Born Gay" either.

Sure, some people are "born gay" (there are those who argue that all homosexuals are born that way), and others are influenced toward homosexuality by their surroundings. The same is true of murderers. Some murderers are born unable to cope with stressors without resorting to violence, others are influenced by their surroundings into resorting to violence.

Saying that they all murderers were influenced into it by societal issues doesn't hold water any more than claiming that all homosexuals can choose their sexual preference.

Sticks and stones...

[darrelx.livejournal.com]

You know, namecalling and misstating my argument are not ways to make a counterpoint.

I did not "compare Homosexuality to Murder". I used both as examples of behaviors that may or may not be genetically or memetically influenced. I created an analogy that I thought could be grasped by the readers of elfs' journal.

My point is simply that some murderers are born that way. Failure to accept that is converse with accepting that homosexuals might be born that way.

This is not comparing one to the other... it's using an analogy to show the underlying truth that behaviors are in some cases not simply choices.

I could have used the analogy that some people are born alcoholics... or that some people are born with exceptional parenting skills... or that some people are born with better athletic ability... or that some people are born with uncanny mathematical ability... but none of those analogies would have rung home as closely as the one I used.

Do you want to debate the underlying point, or just continue to call me names and dismiss the argument with an off-color mistatement of my point?

[tagryn]

Perhaps, but there's probably a fair number of both semi-out and repressed gay men in the military, yet we don't see incidents like this with any regularity. I'd need more evidence before drawing that conclusion, like investigators unearthing a secret stash of gay porn/files or a history of visits to "anonymous" locations for gay sex, and we haven't heard of anything like that yet. You'd expect the preference to manifest itself in *some* form along the way, if it was strong enough to drive him to murder, even if it was just occasional "slips" or images hidden on his computer.

There's a lot of things that can drive one to violence and fanaticism, sexual repression/frustration could be one (as could things like drug abuse, mental illness, etc. etc.), but the most likely causes in this case seem elsewhere, given all that has come out about the particular brand of Islam he was following.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

An odd but interesting fact, Elf:

NPR keeps raising the spectre of, "Terrorist involvement," or "Jihadist influence."

The CBC, in contrast, treats this tragedy as a case of someone snapping and goin' postal, focusing on possible psychological motivations.


Looking for "towelheads" under the bed, anyone?