Posted without comment.

[elfs]

We know soldiering– I mean not training or support or peacekeeping or any of the myriad other things soldiers do, but facing enemy bullets– is inextricably bound up with ideas of masculinity. We also know that most heterosexual males' ideas of masculinity are inextricably bound up with what we now call sexual orientation. In other words, "being a man" typically does mean for soldiers both being brave, stoic, etc.– and being heterosexual. Another way to put this is to say that honor, which is by the testimony of soldiers throughout the ages of the essence of military service, includes the honor of being known for heterosexuality, and that, for most heterosexual males, shame attends a reputation as much for homosexuality as for weakness or cowardice.

Whole thing here.

Comments

[aprivatefox.livejournal.com]

It's that magic use of "we know" that impresses me most in this passage - that nonspecific "we", and the "know" that implies this knowledge appeared fully-formed at some time in the knower's head. Not "I believe," or "Americans are taught," or "this evidence shows," but "we know."

Everything else here is extrapolated from that one piece of knowledge. I wonder where it comes from.

More than that, I wonder if the author wonders, or if he simply believes in this a priori knowledge of what masculinity is.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

This guy is obviously unfamiliar with Classical Sparta and their attitude to manly manliness.

Or, for a modern remix, with the British military today (where discrimination against the non-heterosexual is a disciplinary offense -- for the bigots, not the people on the receiving end).

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

Hell, the UK even allows transgendered soldiers, both trans women and trans men! They wear the uniforms of their identified sex (female uniforms for male-to-female and male uniforms for female-to-male), and, where the regulations differ for men and women, are subject to the regulations of their identified sex.

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

He is also unfamiliar with Israeli military history where women have performed very effectively in a broad range of roles.

So let us rephrase... "Soldiering...is inextricably bound up with ideas of masculinity...for males who believe they have nothing else unique to offer the world."

Not ironically, the sentence would need little adaptation to apply to homophobia.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to figure out that whole "Honor... is being known for being heterosexual."

Aroo?

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

Men are held up as paragons of manhood if they have many notches on their belt. Let's face it, we don't think LESS of Kennedy for being a notorious womanizer, do we? It's part of 007's mystique. He wouldn't be quite the manly man he is, were he single mindedly dedicated to a single female, racing home to her at every opportunity.

It's just not the mystique of the manly man in this culture, though we do value it on a more localized basis. LOCALLY we may look down on the philanderer, while on the broader scale we see female conquest as a sign of power.

In some cases we can extend that to receiving attention from another male on the basis that the pitcher's appatites are too large to be limited, but under no circumstances do we ever extend that manliness/virility to being the catcher.

Even the term impotence has this double meaning.

[gromm.livejournal.com]

Men are held up as paragons of manhood if they have many notches on their belt.

So... er... ah... elfs then?

[shunra.livejournal.com]

That's what they ("Hasbara", "shlichim", etc.) tell people outside of Israel.

In reality, young women are selected (often by looks) for service and support positions. Sexual harassment by commanders is rife. The higher the rank, the greater the flexibility for picking the best looking young women.

The phrase that best reflects that in Hebrew is "hatovim latayis - hatovot latayasim": the good men to become pilots; the good women are allocated to the (male) pilots.

Also, homosexuality was (when I last checked) grounds for immediate exemption from the military. So is orthodox observance of Jewish law (by women; orthodox men are still conscripted).

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

It is also apparently what they tell people inside Israel, based on the museums and tours I took while there.

I have not served in the Israeli military, but I don't doubt that sexism and sexual harrassment exist in any organization. (That includes some very liberal ones I've been involved in where it is well couched in other terms -- such as encouragement to shed one's 'repression'.)

Were the kind of rank open sexual abuse you describe as institutionalized as you suggest, I doubt we would see statistics like this one :

"As of 2002, 33% of lower rank officers are women, 21% of Captains and Majors, and 3% of the most senior ranks."

By contrast the U.S. Army cites this: Only 4.3% of Army General Officers are women

(In fairness, the make-up of the armies is not equivalent. That said, it takes more than 2-3 years to reach the rank of Captain or Major, so apparently large numbers of women stay in the Israeli army and proceed to positions of authority.)

Homosexuality also hasn't been grounds for dismissal since 1993.

Please don't misunderstand me -- I don't doubt there are problems in any military (or large corporation, or...) but on these two fronts they appear far more enlightened than we are.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

The Israeli military did not succeed in conscripting me. It tried, back in the 80s, and decided it might not be a good idea to have me there, for which I am grateful. My peers (male and female) provided me with a great deal of information, which I shared with you, above.

About the information you base on museums and tours in Israel - did you know that tour guides have to be licensed and vetted by the Israeli government? They give the official hasbara line. They have to. In most cases, they want to.

Homosexuality was certainly an easy and automatic way out of conscription to the Israeli army as recently as '96.

I'm not sure the word "enlightened" is exactly the right one. Perhaps "inclusive"? And it is certainly more inclusive than the US one.

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

Hey, I also wanted to say that I know you and I are coming from opposite directions on this one, and I don't mean to start a flamefight or anything.

I just wanted to make the point that women served in combat in the War of Independence, and the military rhetoric (as posted in military museums in Israel) is that they did so with valour, courage, and efficacy. They were later excluded from combat for years, but based on the behaviors of the enemy and their male compatriots, not their own.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

In general, I think your description is correct - in the very limited situation of 1948. In other words, the Israeli army in 1948 demonstrated that women can be part of combat, expanding that activity across gender lines.

[shockwave77598.livejournal.com]

All that will come as quite a shock to Paul Smith, who was awarded Medal of Honor in 2005 by then president Bush (and how I love to say that) for heroism in Iraq.

Paul Smith was Gay.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

There are several false assumptions, just in that paragraph Elf quoted.

First false assumption is: Gay Man == Woman

Corollary false assumption: Woman == Weak

Second false assumption is: Gay Man == Coward

I mean, c'mon! Closet-cases are cowards, sure. Gay men are accused of all manner of foul things, slandered regularly and publicly by an entire political party, and have their masculinity attacked. Out gay men face all of this and refuse to yield.

The next false assumption, more of a flat-out false assertion, is that no in history military has ever been anything but heterosexual.

I think that the members of the ancient Sacred Band would find that absurd.


There is one last, very hidden assumption in that quote. It's so hidden because the assumption underlies American culture:

     Heterosexual Identity == "not ho-mo-sekshal"

If you think about it, you'll realize that this is, indeed, how American male heterosexuals define their sexual identity. Think about its portrayal in films, on television, in music. Look at how Americans describe male heterosexual identity online: always in contrast to male homosexuality, never on its own.

Seriously. What's the biggest insult to an American male's masculinity? Calling him a fag.

Compare this to the worst insult to an Italian male's masculinity: you're wife's sleeping with someone else. The insult is less about the wife's infidelity or promiscuity and far, far more the implication: "You're such a poor excuse of a man that you're wife needs to look elsewhere to be satisfied." And this is part of a common thread in Europe. Namely, a man is heterosexual because he's a great lover with the ladies.


Well, that's how I interpret the cultural differences I've seen.

[mundens.livejournal.com]

Bowman should be pointed at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEbJBFWIPk&feature=player_embedded

The speaker has a lot more right to talk about what soldiers feel than Bowman does.

Check out the sub-title of this screed...

[mikstera.livejournal.com]

"There are sound reasons--unbigoted ones--for our policy on gays in the military."

The saddest part of this is, I bet he actually believes he is being unbigoted...

Re: Check out the sub-title of this screed...

[gromm.livejournal.com]

I don't find that sad. I find that to be something that's easy to point and laugh at.

[(Anonymous)]

Surprised noone brought up the most obvious example yet, Alexander the Great. Whether gay or bi he certainly wasn't straight, and he conquered enough of the world to make Caesar jealous centuries later.

I think another big mistake is that masculinity=agression. It doesn't really if we're honest, not to mention the idea that gay=less masculine. Macho can equal agression, but mostly unfocused if you ask me.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

Read up on the Theban Sacred Band. I link to the wiki page in my comment above.

[gromm.livejournal.com]

I think that anyone who thinks that being gay is anything less than totally masculine has never even so much as passed by the Pumpjack in Vancouver, 80% of whose patrons are obviously about 110% manly.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_candide_/]

Doesn't being gay (male) mean, by definition, that there are no women involved?

I don't think you can get any more masculine than that.