Should she be reading that?

[elfs]

"Dad, what's a concubine?"

This was Yamaraashi-chan's first strange question of the evening. Apparently her big sister gave her the first Xanth book, A Spell For Chameleon, and I have to wonder if it's really the right book for her. There's a scene in there where some demoness is offering herself to the hero, and that's one of the offers she makes. I read her the dictionary description, "A woman who cohabits with an important man."

A little later, she was playing with her stuffed plushes: Silver-- a ragged kitty, Crystal, a cute toy dragon, and Cthulhu. Yes, that Cthulhu. And she asked me, "Dad, what does Cthulhu really look like?"

So I pulled my copy of H.P. Lovecraft's Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre off the bookshelf and read to her the scene where Cthulhu emerges from his pit, judiciously edited. "Everyone was listening still when It lumbered slobberingly into sight and gropingly squeezed Its gelatinous green immensity through the black doorway into the tainted outside air of that poison city of madness. The Thing cannot be described - there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. Three men were swept up by the flabby claws before anybody turned."

She said, "That's so cool! I'm gonna read that whole book!"

I wonder if I should let her. Her mother exposed her to a ton of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and other violent fare when she was much younger and Omaha and I have worked hard to recover the kid that was inside her, but there comes a time when one has to accept that kids will read what they want, and literary violence is very different from television violence. And if she learns something-- Goddess knows Lovecraft had a very respectable vocabulary-- maybe that won't such a bad thing.

I can't stop her from reading Spell for Chameleon, she's halfway through it. It's a heck of a step up from the Magic Treehouse or Droon series. But... should I let the almost-ten-year-old start reading, uh, Lovecraft?

Comments

[nbarnes.livejournal.com]

I'd let my kids read Lovecraft way before they read Piers Anthony. But, then, Lovecraft is, like, good.

Also, I don't have kids, so I don't have the native terror of giving them nightmares for ten years that real parents may.

But Anthony is awful, man. Yamaraashi-chan deserves better. Give her, oh, I don't know, young adult-era Heinlein or something.

Reading is good and all, but there are limits...

[(Anonymous)]

As a teacher I am all in favor of kids reading. With in some very broad bands I believe that as long as they are reading then what they read is less important than the fact that they read.

Having said that, let me back peddle... a lot.

The choice of letting her read H.P.Lovecraft's work is up to you as a parent, and I say that since you know her better than any other person who might influence her reading habits. If you realy think she is ready, and have reread them to double check, then let her read them.

I would point out that there is so much realy good stuff out there for her to read that if you don't htink she is ready then maybe youcould read one or two of them to her and see how it goes.

Good luck and good reading.

MPK

[kengr]

Well, I'd consider warning her that some of the Lovecraft and related stories have been known to make *adults* get nervous if the were alone late at night.

I speak from personal experience. I finished one of the collections and realized that I was alone in a house on the proverbial "dark and stormy night".

I offer this not as a "don't read it" but more as a "be aware of surroundings when reading scary stuff"

[duskwuff.livejournal.com]

The only thing I'd really be concerned about in the Lovecraft, content-wise, is the racial stereotyping.

[litalex.livejournal.com]

I agree, I find Lovecraft a lot less harmful than Piers Anthony.

[acelightning.livejournal.com]

[blaisepascal]

I know I'm atypical, but when I was 10 I read Stranger in a Strange Land. I think you should let her read whatever she desires to read, but giving her fair warning ahead of time (like: "Lovecraft has been known to give adults nightmares" or "I didn't write Aimee for children and I could get into trouble if I let you read it") is perfectly reasonable. Ultimately, though, I think the decision of what to read should be up to her.

[ibsulon.livejournal.com]

I have seen a lot of Piers Anthony bashing in my time, and it's unwarranted as always.

If the only thing you read of Anthony's is Xanth, you have no real basis on which to judge. Certainly, the Xanth series is simplistic and silly at times, but it was never meant to be any more than that. Frankly, if we're going to judge things on literary quality everyone would be reading Toni Morrison, not Heinlein.

However, I'd give every aspiring author a copy of On a Pale Horse and explain, "That's how you spin a yarn!"

..or Isle of Woman.

[nbarnes.livejournal.com]

Even On A Pale Horse, which I quite enjoyed the first time around at the age of 14 or so and consider one of Anthony's best works, makes me want to hit the author with a boating oar. The man has no idea how to write female characters or romantic relationships that aren't pernicious in the extreme.

[slfisher.livejournal.com]

If you want a kid not to read a book, then you need to keep them from discovering it. Once they've discovered it and want to read it, they will find a way, and all you've done is ensure that they'll do it by sneaking around and not telling you.

Reading it out loud to them might be the best solution -- you can possibly elide some of the most scary parts, and at least be there with them when they get it, and listening to it is less intense than reading it oneself.

That said, I would advise *not* to say that a book "gives people nightmares." At best, I'd say "Some people find it scary." I mean, why borrow trouble?

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I'd let mine if he was interested. My folks would have let me.
Jonner is just 9. He's still reading things like Superfudge and Pirates don't wear pink sunglasses, so I think he'd put down Black Seas of Infinity pretty fast.

Lovecraft is dense. His prose is purple and turgid, freighted with adjectives and rather hard to read. It makes much better read-aloud material. (I really like his work as audio books)

As another poster mentioned, you can elide the more pernicious racial stuff, such as the "mongrels" in "Call of Cthulhu" or change the cat's name to "Voodoo" in "The Rats in the Walls" (as Harlan Ellison did for the radio play)

Children that age are bloodthirsty. They like the gorier fairy tales with people getting eaten and such, but most of them want a happy ending in which bad people are punished and the world is returned to normalcy. (I used to be a storyteller, and kids were my favorite audience)

My position on reading is "If they're old enough to be interested, they're old enough to try it. If they get bogged down, they can always come back to it in a few years."

[grum]

At about her age I went on a VC Andrews kick, starting with Flowers in the Attic. Definitely stuff my parents would not have let me read, but at the same time, I don't think any lasting harm came of it.

[wyrdone.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: This is no way stating an opinion on how you should handle this situation as a parent.


IMO, if your kid is asking to read something and is bright enough (she obivously is very bright) to understand at least in part of what she's asking to read, then by all means allow her to read. Particularly if she is asking to read material that is well written and compelling storyline. Doesn't matter what the subject matter is.

For example: If she were to ask to read the Communist Manifesto or Godless by Ann Coulter, would you object?

[pixel39.livejournal.com]

I was reading Kafka at that age--recommended by my mother, believe it or not. And the unexpurgated Canterbury tales, and pretty much anything else I could get my hands on. If we'd had anything by Lovecraft in the house, I would have read it.

If she really wants to read it, she's gonna read it regardless. Better that you know she's reading it.

[stephaniesmom.livejournal.com]

Aye, I read Stranger when I was 9. Piers Anthony I didn't get until i was a teenager.

[erisiansaint]

Admittedly, at the age of 9, I was plowing through the Narnia books By the age of twelve, I was hitting Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books, the Thomas Covenant series, and Heinlein's Time Enough for Love. I picked up Clan of the Cave Bear at thirteen, and The Handmaid's Tale and The Women's Room at fourteen.

Your mileage may vary, but what I found was that, if it interested me, I read it. If it bored me, I put it down. I'd say that to give her the "Most people find this scary" comment, and let her try. It can hardly be worse than my brother reading me The Pit and the Pendulum at the age of eight. (Not Jeremy, the other one.)

Me-too-ing previous comments

[hydrolagus.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the Xanth series as a young adult, only to want to throw them across the room once I was exposed to feminism. The puns are silly and the fantasy is fun, but it is rather icky on female and relationship role models. Might be worth some chatting afterwards as a check-in.
I also agree that a warning about potential scariness and reading aloud might be good for Lovecraft. It lends itself so well to reading aloud--why pass up the chance?

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

I first read "At the Mountains of Madness" at around 8 or 9. It left me with an abiding love for the "lost history" story, where the characters discover a previously unknown prehistoric civilization, both in fiction and in real archaeology. It also made me really get into the notion of alien civilizations in general.

[blaisepascal]

I've never read the Xanth books (maybe one or two, maybe, but if I did I didn't find them memorable), but I've liked some of his other work. My 10th summer was a strange one for reading. My father "assigned" me SiaSL and Gödel, Escher, Bach as reading material then. I think he wanted someone to explain the latter to him. I didn't find out until much later that my middle name (Michael) came from SiaSL.

[damiana-swan.livejournal.com]

Back when my kids were very small and I'd just gotten my first computer with internet access, I asked someone who didn't have kids but who knew something about the filtering software available if there was one he'd recommend. He told me that he felt it was much better to install the appropriate filters in kid's brains--teach them how to think for themselves--than to censor what they expose themselves to.

I ended up taking his advice, and it's turned out pretty damned well. My daughters do think for themselves quite thoroughly, and although it has caused them to become seriously disillusioned with the public school system (which actively discourages independent thought and decision-making) they have grown into really amazing human beings.

You're the one who gave me that advice. :-)

Now, I haven't actually read any Lovecraft--horror really isn't something I enjoy--but Anthony isn't bad for kids that age, despite the fact that he clearly has no idea how the female mind actually works. However, I'd highly highly suggest Tamora Pierce's books--start with Alanna: The first adventure (it's the first book in the Tortall series) or Sandry's Book (the first book in the Circle of Magic series). Ender's Game and the Ender's Shadow books might also be good for her, and as other people have mentioned, the books Heinlein wrote for teenage boys. And Diane Duane's Wizard books! And of course, the Harry Potter books, and Roald Dahl, and anything by Zilpha Keatley Snyder. Oh, and when I was her age and had gone through the entire children's section at our local library, the librarian got me started on Dorothy Gilman's Mrs. Pollifax series, and I still love them. Robin McKinley's books would probably also be good for her, with the possible exceptions of Sunshine and Deerskin.

[(Anonymous)]

>Frankly, if we're going to judge things on literary quality everyone would
>be reading Toni Morrison, not Heinlein.

Erm, I must respectfully disagree. I cannot place Toni Morrison at the top of the literary pantheon.

I also am amused by the idea of lumping together everything Heinlein wrote as being at the same level of literary quality.

[omahas.livejournal.com]

You're the one who gave me that advice. :-)

And, oh, would it be really nice if we could just go with that advice ourselves, now. And we do, with Kouryou-chan. Because Elf and I can talk to each other about our ideas about what is appropriate for her, and have mutual agreement about her education.

But, folks, the one thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that I am *not* Yamaraashi-chan's mother. Angi Long is. And Angi Long and Elf Sternberg do not get along. At all. She is extremely antagonistic at this point towards us. It is very difficult to have any kind of civil conversation with her about anything. So agreeing about this kind of thing...well, as you can imagine a conversation about this hasn't even occurred yet.

And it only takes one "inappropriate book" to start an issue in Family Court (where I've found you are guilty until proven innocent).

[blackcoat.livejournal.com]

Why edit the racial stuff?
I threw a FIT when I found out that they weren't going to assign my sister to read Tom Sawyer 'cause it had the word 'nigger' in it.

I want her to know how they talked about people at that time. I want her to know how the US treated people, and still does. If you try to edit history to take the bad parts out, then you get confused why people are upset about those bad parts.

[fallenpegasus]

I do have to warn you that the Xanth books were early step in how my public library corrupted me.

[gromm.livejournal.com]

It's all your fault for giving her a Cthulu doll. :)

[jenk]

Meanwhile I still have yet to get past page 4 or 5 of Stranger.

I did read Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex*, lots of mysteries, My Secret Garden, Wrinkle in Time, and the Bible ~ including Lot's daughters seducing him after Lot offered them to a mob ~ in grade school.

*I would not recommend it to anyone now, as its heterosexist and male-centered views of sexuality are offensive. But my mom had it and I was bored.

[blaisepascal]

I think I found Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex when I was 8. Either 8 or 9. I forget which.

[memegarden.livejournal.com]

I'm all for the Lovecraft. I'd agree that reading it aloud might be more enjoyable all 'round than her reading it on her own.

Has she read the Narnia books already? Pern?

[(Anonymous)]

let her read them (altho warning her abou the racism might be needful)

after all, it's a good chance to learn words like squamous and rugose

[drhoz.livejournal.com]

er, me

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Is Lovecraft any worse in that regard than Tolkein or Darwin? They were creatures of their ctime. I suppose that's what I should be warning her about.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

I should reprint my review of the "Updated for the 90s!" verision of Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex (But Were Afraid To Ask) someday.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Actually, her mother bought it for her.

I will say that Kouryou-chan was adorable at five when she grabbed a plastic octopus out of a bin at a toystore, put it on her head, and shouted, "Daddy! Look! I'm Cthulhu!"

[duskwuff.livejournal.com]

I don't know about Darwin, having never sat down and read anything he wrote (gasp!), but it's definitely worse than Tolkien, as racial stereotypes often come to the forefront in his stories. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft#Racial_attitudes):

In "Herbert West - Reanimator", Lovecraft gives an account of a just-deceased African-American male. He asserts:

He was a loathsome, gorilla-like thing, with abnormally long arms that I could not help calling fore legs, and a face that conjured up thoughts of unspeakable Congo secrets and tom-tom poundings under an eerie moon. The body must have looked even worse in life - but the world holds many ugly things.

[threnodym.livejournal.com]

Halfway-random comment from a complete stranger:

One of the high points of my childhood came at age twelve, when my father let gave me free run of his book collection. There was Anthony and Eddings in there, there was a huge scattering of pulp between the Asimovs and Heinlens, and more trashy horror than you could shake a few sticks at.

My favourite of those involved a sultry assassin who cannibalised her marks.

My mother would have murdered him if she realised just what I was reading... but it was a nerd's perfect coming of age, and it seems to have left me unscarred. That aside: there are definitely worse things than Lovecraft for a child that age, and I would actually number Buffy amongst them.

[mg4h.livejournal.com]

In general - if there's something in a book that might cause an issue, I'd give it the first chapter or two and check in to see how she's handling it. If you're there for her, she can talk to you about what's going on, how she feels about the book, and you can see how she's reacting.

In particular - not at night, not in a dark room, not when it's stormy outside. Especially not near the shore :)

And in response to what Omaha pointed out - I can't help at all with that. I sympathize for the situation you're in, and I can only hope it gets better. I really wish people would be reasonable, but as I've been proven time and time again, people are not. I'm sorry.