Elf Sternberg

It's entirely possible that other (alien) species, particularly space-fairing species, will experience the universe like we do, with similar sensory equipment. Elf, you've summed up our difference of opinion beautifully. I do not believe in a Platonic ideals, be they Good or Arithmetic. (note the capitalization) If more than one species comes up with similar good, it would be because they are similar themselves, in my opinion, not because the good itself is universal.

Now, if the good is *practical*, which is how I read the original argument - the idea that to evolve the knowledge for space travel takes the brainpower of an entire sentient race working together, for example - then it may recur time and time again. Again, this is not because of any transcendent quality of the value, only that the work required takes that much brainpower put together. As I said originally, I bought his argument, but I didn't buy the example.

I think there's a flaw with the argument against Klingons. On Earth today, the brand of civilization that has thrived the most is Western European. In Guns, Germs, and Steel, Diamond postulates that while China was at least equal to Western Europe in terms of domesticatable food animals and plants, and a good climate for food production, and while they clearly had the same ideas (centuries earlier, usually) that came up in Western Europe, Western Europe's knowledge evolved faster because of the instability and competition between the various states of Europe. China, by contrast, was unified very early in its history. As a result, if the government wanted a particular line of inquiry suppressed, it was supporessed. In Western Europe, doing so might well put your state at a disadvantage to your neighbors, who would overrun you for your troubles.

I think it's entirely plausable that a warlike people like the Klingons might push themselves into space as a species just so the other guys don't get there first. Do remember that much of America's original dominance in space exploration came from competition with the Soviet Union. Bragging rights, veiled threats (our ICBMs can carry THIS much into space over your head), and national pride motivated people a lot more than the altruistic desire to Boldly Go where No One Has Gone Before. Witness NASA's ongoing funding problems.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion, all. And if any of y'all haven't read Guns, Germs, and Steel, I highly recommend it.

-HH