One thing about RaceFail 2009...

[elfs]

I can't wait for GenderFail 2012. Nobody will take GenehackedFurriesFail 2020 seriously.

SubstrateFail 2040 ought to be really fun. "How dare you imply that meat can think some things that metal can't!"

ToposphereFail 2100 will be pointless by comparison.

Comments

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've often found that the fastest way to end a wideranging conversation on the Internet in which I'm no longer interested is to make a pithy comment depicting myself as a jerkwad.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

I was never interested in the heat of the conversation, and I've seen precious little light. I don't have anything interesting or useful to add outside of writing more stories and allowing other people to make their decisions about my work. Short pith was about all the emotion I could work up.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

If you haven't anything interesting or useful to add, why did you add anything at all? As an attempt at humor, you fell short (http://pats-quinade.livejournal.com/154022.html) and, as I said, came off as a jerk.

Also, out of curiousity, have you actually been following the conversation, in order to determine what substantive discussion is being had, or have you been skimming whatever's come across your RSS reader or friendslist? The discussion has been both wideranging and protracted; I suspect it is quite possible to read twenty or thirty entries about the issue full of only stuff and nonsense, and equally possible to read the same number of not only excellent ideas and proposals for action, but non-repeating ideas and proposals for action.

[mundens.livejournal.com]

I thought it was pretty funny, it points out the ridiculousness (and the lack of lasting cultural relevance) of it all quite nicely, IMO.

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

Racism and violations of privacy are ridiculous and lack cultural relevance. Got it.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I've been watching my friends' reaction to it all. Given how many people on my flist have commented on the issue, why shouldn't I plant my flag and say, "I'm just not interested?"

You may have noticed I don't mind coming across as a jerk. Nor do I mind coming across as a self-hating white cock-sucking pig sex heterosexualist liberal and a conflicted sexist "dangerously conservative" misogynistic anti-poly safer-sex bigot. And everything in between. After seeing the post you linked to, I apologize for being predictable and boring.

I have no doubt that we will see other conversations like this about sex, economic status, and eventually even cognitive diversity. We've seen them before. (Scratch "eventually" on that last one; the discussion about neurotypicality vs. neurodiversity is already going on; the parallels between that conversation and this one are many.) To me, this whole issue is a repeat of the 1970s with different actors, many more bullhorns, and a slight broadening (both elevating and depressing) of the conversation and the examples one can bring to the discussion.

I write far-future science fiction. The skin color of my characters will continue to be determined by a die-roll because it usually matters less to them than their choice of fingernail polish. If I ever write a story where melanin production and culture are conflated, I'll try to treat the topic with as much sensitivity and respect as I can.

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

Your reply is qualitatively different from Elf's post how?

[mundens.livejournal.com]

No. The RaceFail debate is ridiculous and has no lasting cultural relevance.

[athelstan.livejournal.com]

So you're saying I should wait for my furry mods until 2025? I'll be 49 and just get my Methuselah hacks at the same time.

I'm not sure what this racefail is all about.

OH. MY. GOD.

[pandakahn.livejournal.com]

Since I limit the number of blogs I read I was totally unaware of any of this.

So, this is something serious? OK, got it.

So, people disagree about a topic and it led to what I will refer to for lack of a better meta concept in my own mind as a "flame war"? OK, got it.

What I missed, and I do apologize for what can only be understood to be complete laziness on my part, is the outcome of this event. Anything coales out of the discussion or did it just degenerate into name calling?

Not being snarky here, honest. I read a lot of the materiel that I could find and found a lot of valid points that I found to be enlightening (and yes, a lot of crap and petulant whining). Was there a final cognitive gestalt that emerged or did it just dissolve into, uhm... nothing?


MPK

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Well, I would sum up Elf's post as "Bored now." and my reply as "Your dismissive behavior is both jerkish and ineffective at silencing."

My goal is not for Elf to not speak, but for him to think differently than he appears to.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

The assumption that there is a singular Racefail debate is pretty conclusive evidence that you haven't been paying attention, honestly.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Amazingly, the Internet is full of people who did not live through these debates in the 70's, because of age, isolation, or contemporary disinterest.

The demographic of post-racial far future utopians is really quite small.

One reason one might not want to say, "I'm not interested" is because it is so easily understood as, "The issues under discussion are too stupid for words."

If I ever write a story where melanin production and culture are conflated, I'll try to treat the topic with as much sensitivity and respect as I can. I don't understand why you don't treat the topic with sensitivity and respect while you're not writing a story, as well.

[codeamazon.livejournal.com]

I won't presume to speak for Elf's goals in posting.

I will say that your post came off as "I'm going to tell you what an asshole you are despite being a guest in your virtual home."

If your goal is to get people to think different, confrontation and smacks rarely work. Perhaps it's an age thing -- while I don't actually know how old you are, you come across as relatively young. Perhaps you're not, but it's the most generous interpretation of the tone of this and several prior posts you've made here that I have, so I will extend it.

I'd make an ironically snarky comment about how us older denizens of the web just aren't understood, but I suspect the irony might be lost. ;-)

I'll say, more frankly, that as a bisexual woman I was discriminated against far more by the lesbian community after my wife divorced me and I began dating a man than I ever was by the straight community while married to my wife. This may seem at best obliquely relevant, but my point is that it's very hard indeed to know what another person's experience of oppression has been, and all too often easy for people with 'obvious' minority status to take others to task while making assumptions about them. It behooves us to remember this when dealing with people of ALL colours and genders and socio-economic levels. As kermit says, it's not easy being green.

I suspect that after some decades as an adult in several minority communities (and a damned visible one at that) Elf is entitled to say "I find this conversation unproductive and predictable." It's his journal, and he's writing for people who choose to be here. He didn't go out to smack someone, he posted his own thoughts on his own blog. At least two of us were amused, and I was once just as earnest as you seem to be.

I got over it when I realized how much discrimination exists within the minority communities I have occupied -- Jewish, queer, poly, bdsm. We're ALL flawed. We ALL form premature opinions of others based on their perceived category of being. It's what sets humans aside -- that we categorize well. That is not to say we shouldn't work to expand our views, or to help others expand theirs, but calling someone a jerkwad is not productive. Ever. Humour is, sometimes. Though of course it can miss, and is almost always effective only with some sub-set of the potential audience.

Ergo Elfs post -- a rant about something that's affecting his friends and that he finds historically absurd, made to his own personal journal -- is more appropriate than your reply -- an ad hominem attack. If your goal was sincerely to get him to think, your approach was likely suboptimal. (Again, not speaking for Elf.)

[elfs.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why you don't treat the topic with sensitivity and respect while you're not writing a story, as well.

I think you're confusing my treatment of race with my disdain for a decades-old argument about racism.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

I don't find the topics severable.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Our expectations of proper behavior on publicly available documents with contents enabled appear incompatible.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

Why is race necessarily relevant? My attitude toward racism is "racists are foolish to be racist," and this is true whether they are white old-style anti-black racists, or "black power" anti-white racists. It's foolish because someone's "racial" origin determines very, very little about them -- to treat it as if it determined the most important things about them is absurd, especially in a society where the only legal remnant of racism is affirmative action.

I just don't think that whites or non-whites are warped enough by affirmative action to make it a really big deal.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

You seem to believe that "proper behavior" includes one's choice of opinions. Why should anyone be ashamed of being unconcerned about race?

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

I believe you are mistaken that the only institutional remnant of racism is affirmative action.

I don't understand to what you object to me considering race relevant. As the discussion is about racism, I don't see how it can be irrelevant.

I do not understand the sense in which you use legal here.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Americans (and lots of people elsewhere, but you, Elf, and I are all in the States) live in a racist society, and intentional ignorance of the scope of the problems associated with race lead to the belief that there is no problem.

Also, I don't object to Elf stating his opinion. I think his opinion is wrong.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

"Legal" means "under law." The only remaining laws in America which discriminate between "races" are the ones involving affirmative action, hate crimes and the like. Around half a century ago, this was not true -- there were laws on the books, and enforced, which discriminated against nonwhites.

It is quite true that some covert racists, both white and non-white, are in positions of power in various institutions, and that remnants of the institutional culture from the time of legally-enforced racism still survive. But these are clearly spent forces, becoming weaker every year. This would not be the case if the anti-nonwhite laws were still on the books.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

All societies are racist to varying degrees. America was once one of the most racist cultures in the West. This is no longer the case, thanks to the civil rights breakthroughs of the 1950's and 1960's.

I think that America's victory over her own racism is something of which we can justly be proud.

Furthermore, the long-term trend in the West is anti-racist. Elf's being perfectly reasonable in assuming that the races that seem so important now will be irrelevant centuries from now.

Look at the historical evidence. 75-150 years ago, German-Americans and Irish-Americans were treated, effectively, as members of different "races" by Anglo-Americans. This ceased to be the case as early as the middle of the 20th century. What makes you imagine that anti-black or anti-East Asian racism will persist centuries into the future?

Also, extensive intermarriage on an Earth shrunk by increasing wealth and increasing ease of long-distance transportation will tend to meld all existing racial origins until they become merely genaeological curiosities. I see absolutely no likely development that could do more than mildly slow this process down -- not even affirmative action, because people are unlikely to make their marriages on the basis of attempts to gain percentile advantages on admissions exams!

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Our understanding of the racial history of the West is too far apart for me to believe that we are capable of having a productive conversation on this topic.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Being patronizing while admonishing me to be polite undercuts your argument for politeness.

As for the rest, I feel my position is accurately reflected by the wise words of Inalasahl. (http://inalasahl.livejournal.com/149900.html)